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[00:00:01] Introduction: Broadcasting from the campus of Salisbury University, this is WSDL Ocean City, NPR News Talk 90.7, putting Delmarva first. It's time for Delmarvah Today with your host, Don Rush. [00:00:14][12.5]

[00:00:41] Don Rush: It's called Georgetown, but it's a Georgetown that no longer exists, where it was an African-American community that sat in the heart of Salisbury. Welcome to Delmarva today. This is Don Rush. If one looks down from the Chipman Cultural Center off Route 13, in 1900, the scene would have looked dramatically different, including a lake that filled part of the downtown area. This was Georgetown, and this was a thriving African- American community with homes and businesses. But his disappearance began in earnest with Route 13 cutting down through Salisbury, beginning the late 1930s and then later Route 50 after that. The second program on this committee, we wanted to talk to some folks who live there and remember it. We have Audrey Jackson-Matthews, as well as Vance Elbert and Gus White, and of course, Council Member Shani Shields. Welcome to you all to the program. Well, Shani, I want to start with you since you're the elected official here. What's, so what do you remember of Georgetown and what did people tell you about Georgetown? [00:01:42][61.1]

[00:01:43] Shani Shields: Um, first of all, I didn't wasn't, I didn't live in Georgetown. My great-grandfather did Charlie Pinkett and also, uh, cousin Katherine Brown Leonard, whose son was a Tuskegee Airman who was born in, um, on Broad Street in that area. And I think originally, um uh, cause and Katherine and cousin Howard, uh lived on Bowling lane. There were four lanes in Georgetown, Happy Lane. Olin Lane, Pollitt Lane, and I forgot the other lane, it was another lane, according to my cousin Catherine's grandson, Wilmore Davis. But I attended, which is now Chippam Center John Wesley Methodist Church. After Sunday school, I would go down to my great-grandfather's house, which was on Happy Lane. And also, during some meetings with the Dawson's at Poplar Hill Mansion, I found that one of the 11 Houston slaves, and I think his slave took his name, married a relative, Leo Pinkett. At that time, the land where now the Jeanette P. Chipman boundary playground is, that land was owned by John Pinkett in 1926. Um, Howard Leonard was the first homeowner; he actually built a brand new home on Broad Street in 1926. And from my Wilmore Davis' recollection, he could remember people with pumps and outdoor toilets. And one of the landlords at the time was Chandler. Mr. Chandler owned this property there. And they had my aunt Gladys's sister. Married Dr. White, who was a black dentist who lived on Poplar Hill. Audrey can tell you more about Dr. White because she lived in the neighborhood, but it was to me, I remember it as almost an integrated neighborhood, also North Division Street, which is a little pass of Georgetown, was Mr. Jack Burkett lived right on North Division Street across from the graveyard. Correct me when I get lost. And he lived amongst the white community. And I don't think he had crosses burned on his yard or anything. It seemed like the people were getting along in that neighborhood, that the acceptance was there. They were neighbors, they really were neighbors. You know, and I used to think that the big houses coming down Isabel Street were castles, a little girl, because that's what they remind me of, and castles were on my way to church. I just loved the architecture there. But also, I loved the, the neighborhood was just a neighborhood. You know, the people got along, just like any other black community. And I remember my uncle, uncle, oh Lord. Parsons, Walt Parsons worked for Jimmy Stewart, which was the funeral home, am I correct? I remember that. And then Mr. Thornton Jolly used to work for Jimmy Stewart, and then he branched out on his own, and now they have Jolly Memorial Chapel, which is on Lake Street. And so many of the African American churches when that Route 50 came, prior to that they moved elsewhere like First Baptist Church and I think St. James was there too. St. Paul's, St.- St. Paul's, St.Paul's, yeah. So there was a lot of, our good history had disappeared. And I'm so glad that other church is still standing there as a replica of what churches were there. Cause on that other side, by Baptist Street, I think that's, I hope nothing ever happens to that. Cause it'd be a shame if it did. [00:05:43][240.5]

[00:05:44] Don Rush: So, so your memory of it is, I mean, so there was a certain integration in the sense of when people, when people came from different communities, that there was, there was a certain amount of civility, I guess, for lack of a better word, that that there was, I mean, did kids play together, black and white, or was that separated out? We'll see. [00:06:03][18.6]

[00:06:03] Shani Shields: Well, see I didn't I was a visitor because I didn't live there. Yeah, I didn't live there per se, but I replayed Naturally, I played with my relatives there. Right, but um, I'm assuming cuz Audrey can talk about that [00:06:16][13.4]

[00:06:18] Audrey Matthews: It was a family, and the little boy was named Johnny, and he would come over, he stayed with his grandparents, and he'd come over constantly, especially after school was out. We would all play together, and we would eat with us, stay and have dinner and everything with us. [00:06:38][19.5]

[00:06:39] Vance Elbert: And you know, Don, that was the peculiarity of that particular neighborhood and of that particular era, because that was their era during segregation. [00:06:46][7.4]

[00:06:46] Don Rush: That's right. [00:06:47][1.1]

[00:06:49] Vance Elbert: And on Poplar Avenue, where I lived at, the blacks lived on one side of the street and the whites lived on the other side. On the other side. But when we would play softball and play games in the street, we would all play with each other. And when school would start, those kids would go to Wi-Junior High (Wicomico) and Wi-Senior High (Wicomico). And during my era, we would go to Salisbury High, which was all the way across town on the west side of Salisbury. But it was very peculiar on that, because you had a mixture of white citizens and black citizens in we could practically go anywhere that we wanted to go without having any particular kind of problem in that particular neighborhood. [00:07:34][45.2]

[00:07:35] Shani Shields: Yes, that's true. [00:07:36][0.6]

[00:07:36] Vance Elbert: And that was a neighborhood that was close to downtown Salisbury before the Route 50 bypass came in. [00:07:41][5.5]

[00:07:42] Audrey Matthews: That's true [00:07:43][1.2]

[00:07:46] Don Rush: So, well, let me turn to you, Audrey. So, you grew- you were born there. So, and what was it like growing up? When was this time period, when were you, when were like in your teens? When was that? [00:07:58][12.2]

[00:07:59] Audrey Matthews: I'm 86 years old. (laughs). [00:08:01][1.5]

[00:08:02] Don Rush: Alright, so now we got an idea! So with the 19...1920s, 30s, I guess, yeah. [00:08:09][6.8]

[00:08:10] Audrey Matthews: We went to Salisbury Colored High School and we used to enjoy, we had to walk, no bus, didn't care, rain, snow, whatever, we'd have to get out and we'd have to walk from Poplar Hill Avenue, we go from Poplar Hill Avenue through William Street, from William Street over to Park Avenue, from Park Avenue over to Isabel Street on up to Leg Street to the school. To the school, and we would enjoy it, and in the spring, you know, on Poplar Hill Avenue, off of North There's the street. You know where Williams Street is? It's a little alley behind those houses. And you know, when the fruit and stuff come on the tree, we would come in from school or even going, we would go down through there. And those white people were very nice to us because they let us have a good time in their backyard with their pears, or apples, or whatever. So it was a lot of fun. It was nice, I loved up there. [00:09:15][65.7]

[00:09:16] Vance Elbert: I can remember a couple of families in particular during my era, which was in the early 60s, the late 50s, early 60's. There were a couple of families on Poppacola Avenue where a lot of kids were present, and we were able to play ball, games, and things with them. There was the Niblett family, Mr. Rudy Niblet's family, and there was also the Mitchell family. [00:09:38][21.7]

[00:09:39] Audrey Matthews: Uh-huh. [00:09:39][0.0]

[00:09:40] Vance Elbert: Used to play with kids such as Johnny Mitchell and Eddie Mitchell and Johnny wound up being a pastor and district superintendent in the Peninsula Methodist Conference and he passed away a few months ago so it was it was very it was a very unusual peculiar neighborhood yes it was and there used to be a a store on the corner that we would all get sodas and things from it was Kent Wells Market. And on the radio at that time, in 59 and 1960, they had a little jingle, "Cantwell's Market, Can't Be Beat, Poplar Hill Avenue, and Broad Street". So I always remember that little jingle back in the day. [00:10:22][42.9]

[00:10:23] Audrey Matthews: And crossed from Baptist Church on that corner, remember Mr. Wiggins' store, service station, yeah, across the street, the white man had a service station over there, and it was nice. He was nice, and Mr. Langston's store, Remember- you remember Mr. Langston's store? Oh, he had all kinds of penny candy in there for us. (laughs) [00:10:46][23.0]

[00:10:46] Don Rush: So you used to go, you used, Audrey used to go in there and buy some of that candy? [00:10:50][3.4]

[00:10:49] Audrey Matthews: Some of that yes, yes, yes, and uh, it was a restaurant I can't remember oh was it Johnson it was a restaurant did you remember that little restaurant no no but it was a little restaurant right next to Mr. Langston's store you remember that, Gus? Or was it later? Not quite, I don't know, later. Well, it was Mr. Lyston's store on the corner and the next little, you know, on the corner of the alley and the next place was this restaurant, maybe to come to me after a while. And next to that was Mr. Joe Carney's bicycle shop. And then on the other side of the other alley was the funeral home, Mr. Jimmy Stewart. Oh my, and the Flat Iron Building, remember the Flat-iron Building in the middle? And that was a hairdresser because Miss Gussie used it for a hairdresser's parlor and for different things. And you know, we had that street going in between Broad Street and Church. And you when they put 52, they cut all, they took all of that ice because Benedict floors was in, I remember the professional building was in there. [00:12:07][78.2]

[00:12:08] Vance Elbert: And Poplar Hill Avenue used to run straight on across, and down at the bottom of the hill was an Acme Market, and some other buildings such as Shore Distributors. [00:12:17][8.8]

[00:12:19] Audrey Matthews: Yeah. Was it A&P somewhere down there? Oh, ask me. That was the ask me, uh-huh. [00:12:23][4.9]

[00:12:24] Don Rush: There used to be a lake at one point; I guess it was Humbley's lake. [00:12:30][5.5]

[00:12:29] Audrey Matthews: It was, it was down in there, like uh, why does this they had a dance hall? Up on the hill part, you know behind where the church was but it was downward more like where sure distributor down in their Somewhere's in that area [00:12:50][21.2]

[00:12:50] Don Rush: So what was it like having a big pond like that? I mean, didn't, didn't, didn't. [00:12:54][3.7]

[00:12:54] Audrey Matthews: Well, we didn't go down there too much. No more than go to the store, you know, the Ackermann store or something. That was more like in round the pond area. [00:13:03][9.2]

[00:13:05] Shani Shields: I've heard of it. [00:13:05][0.6]

[00:13:07] Audrey Matthews: Mm-hmm, yes, all that touch, it covered it, cleared that ice. [00:13:12][5.5]

[00:13:13] Don Rush: So, right, so there's this entire area, right? Because what we think of as downtown, and to Market Street, that sort of thing, that was all like underwater, I take it. [00:13:21][8.3]

[00:13:21] Audrey Matthews: Uh-huh. [00:13:21][0.0]

[00:13:22] Don Rush: And then, and then I guess, and then they opened it up of course by the time you were growing up they opened up because I think the damn I think person 1909 and they just never rebuilt it so that they have this sort of big sort of bowl kind of thing [00:13:34][12.1]

[00:13:34] Audrey Matthews: Oh, it was a big difference. [00:13:36][1.8]

[00:13:37] Don Rush: Gus, what do you remember? [00:13:38][1.4]

[00:13:39] Gus White: Okay, well, I came to Salisbury in 1946, around that time, and actually, Route 13 was just coming through, and my mother took myself and my brothers to Poplar Avenue, and that's we grew up with her, actually cousin. We grew up like brothers and sisters. Route thirteen was just coming through and uh... And actually, I guess around that time I used to wonder why I went to Philly and New York so because I didn't realize it what happened when Route 13 started coming through it demolished all the houses that my folks live in our family members who could not find housing And oh, George. Went to Philly and New York places and that's where they grew up. So I used to go up there all the time. But I learned later on that they had to leave because of the houses being demolished. So I came to Salisbury as just as... Route 13 was coming through. And there were, I guess, plans to bring Route 50 through at that time, but I didn't know it. So all of my elementary school years, and even high school years were in Salisbury. So I guess. Growing up in Georgetown. And that's one thing I learned about that life, because it was like doing agriculture. And I learned, well, I used to pick cotton, not cotton, excuse me, pick watermelons, string beans, cantaloupes, all kinds of vegetables, you know. One thing I've learned. I don't want to do this type of work all the rest of my life. So as I got through elementary school, and that was about 19, I think, around 47. And I was at the Chipman Elementary School on Lake Street. And then I used to look at the teachers and talk to the teachers, you know. And I said, boy, it's a different lifestyle for the teachers. I said look, I guess what I want to is become a mathematician, maybe I'll go to college and come back here and teach math. So my focus is on teaching math. Most of the people that I used to go to work for. Were educators, or they believed in education. So what they used to do, they used to encourage me to go to school and become a teacher, a math teacher. So I said, OK, I'll go to the school and come back and become math teacher, but when I got to high school. This was Mr. Chairman, Charles H. Chimman, and like the math professors, people like William Hall, my teachers, you know, boy that's interesting work that they, lifestyle, and I like all technical stuff. And so they encouraged me to go on to college, and also, that's what I did. I said, well, look, I'll go to college. Maybe major in engineering or mathematics. So I said, well, where I want to go to college. I used to, I was familiar with SU as a child because I used come out to SU, and that was when it was farmland. And I used go down there, pick strawberries on the SU property. And of course, Allen Farm was across the street, and they sold vegetables and stuff, and strawberries and things like that. So I... 19, somewhere when I was near graduation. So while I said, well, I don't want to go to college, I started looking at schools. Now that was during the area of segregation now. SU was an option. So I began to look across the Chesapeake Bay Bridge. So I know one of my teachers graduated from Morgan State University, and some others, you know. So I said, well, maybe I'll go to Morgan State University, even though that was across the bridge and outside of Baltimore. So anyway, that's why I ended up leaving Salisbury in Georgetown and going to Morgan State University. [00:18:39][299.5]

[00:18:41] Don Rush: Audrey, what was it like going to school here? [00:18:43][2.3]

[00:18:44] Audrey Matthews: Oh, it was fun. We had a lot of fun. Had good teachers and everything, but the walking in the wintertime was not fun, and rainy days was no fun for us, but we had to go, so it was what it was like. [00:19:05][21.4]

[00:19:06] Don Rush: And what was the school like itself? [00:19:09][2.5]

[00:19:10] Audrey Matthews: School was fine. My godmother was my first-grade teacher and when you know from year to year when my last graduating year we were I was in academic they moved me from general to academic, and you know, Mrs. Chipman and Mr. Chipman so they kept me under there. So when I finished, graduated from high school, I was sick and after I got over that sixth belt and I decided I was going to go to New York and I went to New york and through Mrs. Chipman and Mr. Chipman, I got myself a job at Saks Fifth Avenue and I worked there for a while until, you know how they lay off time coming, and the newer ones. Younger ones they were the first ones to go. So I wound up then going down to down on Broadway working at a where they make passports You know, filing books Envelopes and everything, and I enjoyed it until I just made up my mind. I would come back Come back here. [00:20:33][83.3]

[00:20:34] Don Rush: So so what were the Chipmans like? [00:20:36][1.8]

[00:20:37] Audrey Matthews: Oh, they were wonderful people, wonderful. They helped you, you know, if they saw where you were having a problem or running into some kind of, you know, they would, they were right there to help you. [00:20:53][15.8]

[00:20:53] They say that. A lot of kids who went to college that they were sent by the Chipmans and probably did not know it because they had no children of their own. They raised Ms. Chipman's niece and I didn't realize that she was a relative of mine because she was Pinkett, like I'm a Pinkett, until we went start going to the family reunions because she always said Jeanette P Chipman, and the P is Pinkett. So I found out later on. When we started having family reunions that she was a pinket. I was shocked, you know, because I always looked at her as my teacher, and the teachers, I was fortunate to go to Salisbury High until the full integration in 66. And most of the teachers that we had at Salisbury High lived; Professor Chipman provided lodging for them. And back in years ago, teachers could not marry, the women could not marry. They were mostly single women. And that was both, I think, black and white community because the women would have babies. But I think they changed their, naturally changed their ruling. And they, the place that he had for the teachers, he purchased it was called a Parsons rest home on West Main Street here in Salisbury, which was California section of Salisbury. And where J.P. Parsons hung nails up on Lemon Hill. He purchased that for the residence for the teachers. And I thought that was kind, and he also taught them how to invest their money. My cousin, Elaine Brown, told me that it was $1.75 a week, where he taught them about investing their... That's where I think he was generally concerned about all the children that they taught in the school, not just the upper cross, all the children in the school and I think the teachers also did the same thing because again my cousin Elaine said the boys are in the industrial, the industrial in general, she had them to write a journal, keep a journal in her English class to them how to write. So I think a lot even Sunday school teachers when I'm going up in John Wesley, they taught you manners. You didn't do certain things in church because one lady, I was scared to deaf of Miss Webb I never forget her. You couldn't do anything because she coming to tap your hand. It was Francis' mom, I was sacered to deaf of her. You did not do anything wrong in church That's when she saw you mostly times in church Miss and yeah, she correct you. You did not do anything, then she tell your mom what she did. And then I remember after Sunday school, especially when I got a little older, I'd go to the drug store down on Church Street. Yeah, on the corner. On the corner, and he sold ice cream, flakes, and stuff. [00:24:02][188.2]

[00:24:02] Vance Elbert: That was Kelly's drugs. It was right next to the Holloway Funeral Home. That's right. That's where it was. Holloway's Funeral Home was on Church Street before it moved out to Snow Hill Road. And we would go there after church. Kelly's Farmers. [00:24:15][13.4]

[00:24:17] Shani Shields: And we weren't turned away or anything, you know, we were treated, we were always treated with, um, respect when you went to those establishments that there, that then it was Cantwell Market and the drug store that I was familiar with in my timeframe. [00:24:31][14.2]

[00:24:32] Don Rush: These are all by white people? [00:24:34][1.3]

[00:24:35] Vance Elbert: By white people and back where, I don't know if that's part of Georgetown, but back where the C&P, the government building now, the telephone company, that's when Almond, the Almond Theater family lived. And I think they were the first Jewish family to move to Salisbury, because my cousin Catherine Brown's grandmother worked for them. And then Tony Sarbanes, and then my mother used to play with Tony Sarbanes because my grandparents worked at the hotel. So down in that area, the whites and blacks got along, and when there were children playing like Audra was saying they would play with kids, and everything you didn't have that racial tension at that time, and my great-grandfather Charlie Pinkett was uh in the politics in a sense I think he got people to vote for Mr. Uh uh Mr. Robert Cannon. That's how I grew to respect Mr. Cannon because of the closeness he had with my great-grandfather. He was very nice to me and my family. Charlie Pinkett was the one that was getting people to vote. I don't know what he did, I don't know what the fact is. I only gave Plano whiskey or what, but he got the people to the vote. And when I moved back home, Mr. Robert can't say, you're Charlie Pinket's grand? I said, yep, Peppa and Charlie. He said, oh, he said he was a good man. And just the idea of how he felt about my grandfather meant a lot to me. [00:26:05][90.1]

[00:26:05] Don Rush: They noticed by the way there was uh... There were a number of people who are waiters I guess on the Houston even uh... Uh... But this is at Langston and then the way but they wound up owning uh... Hotels and property mean how- how was it that that you had the sort of obviously they were low paying jobs as waiters and so on and but they were able to accumulate and and and put their money together such a way as to own property and become more than just simply the small jobs that they had. [00:26:35][29.4]

[00:26:37] Shani Shields: Well, I think sacrifice from what I was told the house that my cousin Harwood Leonard built was $3,000 and that's a lot of money. I know my mother's my mother that raised me, she was actually was my cousin. Her father had a hotel and restaurant down where near Brew River. But what they did, he was a barber. Also, what he did people for coming down the road would bring him. Dressed chickens, and a lot of times you didn't get really paid with money so they learned that sacrifice to me the people in the generation three generations behind me they had more than we have now because we had our own things for one thing we had own things and they bartered or they just helped one another That's a difference now. Sometimes now in the black and white community, you don't even know your neighbor You don't know your neighborhood. You don't visit you don't Conversate don't have I can remember when we after church you had dinners at your home Your pastors came to the house and sit and had dinner with you like a family. They don't do that No, they don't and that's what's missing in a community. Oh, I hate to touch base, but you know me I got going during left field but integration to me, hindered some of the closeness in the black community. I think we had our own restaurants. We had a postcard that had a nice place for social gatherings. The funeral homes, you had the bicycle shops, you had more black businesses then than you do now. And I mean, sustaining business that don't just be here two years and gone. You had businesses that were here for years and was an example for the young black person coming up. And now the younger generation don't see that as much anymore. [00:28:42][124.5]

[00:28:43] Vance Elbert: You know the other the other part this goes back to culture in the sacrifice of the african-american community done because when you look back at center of the africian-america community it was always the church and the john wesley church which today is a chipman cultural center was the center of that in particular community and when you looked at the history of that particular building when that building was purchased. In 1838 by five freed slaves. And some of them were a part of the Poplar Hill Mansion. They were able to, with the assistance of some of the white community, to purchase that property and build the first structure for a church in this particular area. And if you remember in 1838, that was during the era of slavery. And at that particular time. Slaves could not own property and they definitely could not vote and at that particular time when that building was first built the area where the chipmunk center is right now was a part of Worcester county because Worcestershire county came up to north division street and on the other side of north division st was Somerset county now after the civil war in 1867 uh that became a part of Wacomico County and, and the. Building that we refer to right now as the Chipman Cultural Center, it happens to be the oldest used wooden church structure on the Delmarva Peninsula and possibly in the state of Maryland because that building is in use today and it was in use in 1838 and its uniqueness is that it's an all wooden structure which means there's always maintenance to the building but it is significant because it represents what that African-American community was all about, going all the way back when it was then Moose DeKalb. [00:30:50][127.1]

[00:30:52] Shani Shields: And the school also. [00:30:52][0.7]

[00:30:53] Vance Elbert: It was the first school for African-American children after the Civil War because prior to the emancipation proclamation, it was against the law to teach the slaves to read or write, and so all of that that we have come to today we have built on the shoulders of those who have come before us uh... The uniqueness of Professor Chipman in purchasing the building. Was that even though he was an educator, his entire era of being a principal, which was 46 years from 1915 to 1961, he was a principal during the era of racial segregation. And that was a practice that came about after the Civil War, and it was also prevalent in this area till the civil rights laws and what have you were passed. We were a community that lived in the era of racial segregation here in this community but we managed to- to get along and race is a very important legacy in America is is very few things you can discuss in American history past present or future that does not relate [00:32:07][73.7]

[00:32:09] Don Rush: Let me ask you this: how do you assess the impact of Jim Crow on this community? In one sense, and Shani was talking a bit about how in one sense this community was because it was focused on just a particular area, everybody was sort of together, that there was much more integration in the sense of people who had businesses and people who were poor and people who were wealthy, that sort of thing, because they couldn't really move out. The right to the segregated period. So that, and I've heard this, and I've heard that by the way before, in other contexts, what was this downside? I mean, but there certainly was this downside. What was, I mean what was the full impact? [00:32:48][38.9]

[00:32:49] Vance Elbert: The era of Jim Crow was the same as it was in this community, as it was in almost any other community, even across the nation. And, and, and let me just say this, it was just a, a spirit of, of, of trying to get along to the best that we could, uh, we had racially separate schools, uh when we attended the movie theater, uh the African Americans had to sit in the balcony. We could not sit in restaurants and eat. For example, some of the young guys that I grew up with in the Georgetown community, we remember going down to the Salvation Army to try and register to play football when we were in the seventh grade over there, and we were turned away because they didn't allow colored children to play. And we had played softball and baseball with some of white kids in our neighborhood. And then when we got finished. We go to a restaurant, want to get a Coke or whatever, and they would say to us, those five, we can give them a Coca-Cola, but the other ones, they have to take it out. So when it comes to the impact of Jim Crow, we experienced that also. [00:34:02][73.1]

[00:34:04] Don Rush: What is your white colleagues or your the kids that who are white who played with what did they say? I mean did they or did they go in today? [00:34:11][7.6]

[00:34:12] Vance Elbert: I mean what believe it was a relationship in a in a spirit of trying to get along when they would say that to us Then the- then the white kids would say well, we'll take hours also. They never stayed They never stay so so we've had that experience in the in the Georgetown community. [00:34:29][17.2]

[00:34:30] Don Rush: Tell me about way, we've mentioned this, but there was a slew of businesses, black-owned businesses in this area, which Shani now indicates, obviously, has now disappeared. Indeed, the entire community has disappeared. What were those businesses like and what happened? Was it just simply that they bulldozed everything out, because obviously they did with Route 13 and 50? I mean, what do you think, Audrey? [00:34:53][23.5]

[00:34:54] Audrey Matthews: They uh did mr's license store was in the area that he built in del and um it after the restaurant was miss uh miss phoebe do you remember a lady they called miss phebe well that was the restaurant next to his Langston's store and Mr. Uh Joe Cornish is all that they took it out and they started bringing 13 and 15, cleared all of it out. And Mr. Bob Toaston, remember, he had a cleaning, pressing and cleaning shop in the corner of Allen Street [00:35:32][38.1]

[00:35:32] Don Rush: Mm-hmm. [00:35:32][0.0]

[00:35:34] Shani Shields: I think that it shows that anytime there's a highway to come through any highway it comes through our community. The last bypass was out on Jersey Road, that area. That's the last one we were doing the bypass that came right through neighborhoods and some people had to move out. [00:35:59][24.1]

[00:36:00] Audrey Matthews: Mm-hmm. [00:36:00][0.0]

[00:36:01] Shani Shields: Nailman- Nailman Road, when they expanded, Nailman Road where Westwood is and all that, that was, they took some houses, I know a black couple's house, Sammy Cornish's house went. Yes. But, it was moved across the street now, someone purchased it, but I'm just saying, it seems like everything that we did to give pride to us, it just bulldozed down and and and what saved Chipman- John Wesley Church was it was on the other side. [00:36:35][34.6]

[00:36:36] Audrey Matthews: Mm-hmm. [00:36:36][0.0]

[00:36:37] Shani Shields: That's reality, because you know you had Wicomico Presbyterian, you had all the other churches, Trinity, all that, they wouldn't come across there. I think that's the only reason why. And the other church was a white church down on the corner that I was talking about, the Baptist Church. Yeah, that was the church. And if you look at the graveyards, I have to bring that up, the Houston Cemetery, the Houston Cemetery, some of my relatives, and probably your relatives, are buried out there. There's a buried out there. [00:37:02][24.8]

[00:37:02] Audrey Matthews: All of the Laws is a buried in there. [00:37:03][1.2]

[00:37:03] Shani Shields: The Laws is related to you? [00:37:04][1.4]

[00:37:04] Audrey Matthews: Yeah. [00:37:04][0.0]

[00:37:05] Audrey Matthews: Okay. Yeah. Oh and I went out there the other day And I looked on the website going I went there just to look at some history because I know some of my family was very there and right at the- Right at the all at the street almost. There's a big tombstone. I knew he had money. It's taller than that- Where that camera is. Harwood Pinkett so I called my uncle in Georgia. And I said, do you know a Harwood Pinkett? Cause I never heard of it. And he said, that was my grandfather's brother. [00:37:38][32.9]

[00:37:38] Audrey Matthews: Mm-hmm. [00:37:38][0.0]

[00:37:39] Shani Shields: And he has a marble tombstone with it and you still visually see it but there's a whole list of of people you go online I think through the Nabb Center but- doing the Houston cemeteries uh history uh that the names uh are there and Mary Brown my on Georgia Brown's mother's birth there. [00:38:00][21.1]

[00:38:01] Don Rush: So this is Black Cemetery. [00:38:02][0.7]

[00:38:03] Shani Shields: It was basically what they really called a paupers-. They said it was a paupers cemetery, but I don't believe it because the people had tombstones on there. [00:38:09][6.0]

[00:38:09] Vance Elbert: And when the highway came through a lot, a lot of those graves had to be, had to be moved, but also where, right. But also where I graduated from Salisbury high school, I think that was the third high school for the African-American community, because I remember, uh, Mr. Bob Hudson used to say that he, he graduated from the Salisbury Colored Industrial School and that was over there in the Georgetown area. [00:38:36][27.7]

[00:38:37] Shani Shields: Yeah on the warehouse [00:38:37][0.6]

[00:38:41] Vance Elbert: where the school was, and then the modern school, the Salisbury Colored High School, was built on Lake Street across from the playground. And then Professor Chipman and the PTA, from what I understand and saw records on, raised money to help the Board of Education purchase the land that's on Morris Street, and there the Salisbury High was built. And that's the school that I graduated from. Miss Arger graduated from the Salisbury High, from the Salisbury Colored High that was on Lake Street, which is an elementary school. And we know of persons in our families and what have you and friends that graduated from Salisbury Industrial Colored high school, which was over in Georgetown. So we had three high schools before we basically got to a real nice modern school. [00:39:33][51.5]

[00:39:33] Shani Shields: Yes, Randolph Brooks graduated in 1927 from Salisbury Industrial School, my mom Esther graduate 1927 because we went for graduate 1928 Mrs. Lessie Cross graduated my first teacher [00:39:45][12.0]

[00:39:45] Vance Elbert: And Professor Chipman was principal of those schools from 1915 to 1961. They were very good friends of my family because my family came into the area around 1939 but my father was pastor to the church then that was called John Wesley and once he got churches up the road and came back in the Delaware conference as a district superintendent that's when I came back. But Professor Chipman did a great thing when he purchased that building for posterity Delaware and the Peninsula conferences merged and that congregation built a church which is now down on West Road called Wesley Temple and he was able to save that building which is a historic building and it is the remaining replica of what that thriving black community was here in Salisbury before Route 50 came through and moved all of that out of there. [00:40:47][62.6]

[00:40:48] Don Rush: Now, as I understand it, there was this, it looks as if there was an effort to move the African-American community out of Georgetown to the west side, I think it was Sunset Heights, I think was the, do you get a sense of that, that's what happened, that part of that was not just simply the roads and stuff, but that there was. [00:41:05][16.7]

[00:41:05] Vance Elbert: I would say during that era, when those decisions were made, darling, that was during the era of racial segregation. So it would only be practical to say that during that particular time, that thought probably trended itself. And as in any city or community that's building, there are strategic and comprehensive planning that takes place. It's not something that you dream up overnight, let's put a highway through here. So, But you would have to say that because of that era, that definitely was a factor. I don't think anybody could dispute that. That was definitely a factor, and then that gave birth to the west side, and that's where the majority of the African American community resided in this area was on the westside once that highway came through, once Route 50 came through there. [00:42:00][54.2]

[00:42:01] Don Rush: Audrey, I mean, did you get that sense? Did you get a sense that your community was slipping away? Yes. [00:42:05][3.8]

[00:42:05] Audrey Matthews: Yes, yes, yes because when they started tiring out the houses, you know for the highway. Yes Yes, it hurt [00:42:15][10.9]

[00:42:17] Vance Elbert: See, we even had some churches in that area. We had St. Paul Church, First Baptist Church. [00:42:22][5.4]

[00:42:23] Don Rush: That's it. [00:42:23][0.3]

[00:42:23] Vance Elbert: And First Baptist today is located on the corner of Delaware Avenue and Booth Street. But originally First Baptist was right over there in the Georgetown area. [00:42:32][8.6]

[00:42:32] Audrey Matthews: Right [00:42:32][0.0]

[00:42:33] Vance Elbert: So, Andre, you said it hurt. [00:42:35][2.3]

[00:42:36] Don Rush: What do you mean? [00:42:36][0.4]

[00:42:36] Audrey Matthews: Well, maybe it was because, you know, I was born and raised up there, but it was just, and you know we had the home place, my great-uncle had bought this house where I was born, had bought the house for his mother, which was my great great-grandmother. And I mean we were in it, you now, all these years. And then when they started, you know, buying a from the- buying people like and everything and I tried I did everything I could you know to try to save the home place but from the uh from uptown they told me we didn't have enough footage you know I wanted to uh after he condemned the home please I wanted to try uh uh build something else you know another place there and he told me that we didn't have enough footage, you know, front nor back. We had, they demolished it and we had, you know, naturally paid for it to keep it, you know, in the family. Oh, that's why I say it hurt. It really hurt. [00:43:48][71.5]

[00:43:49] Don Rush: So your house, did your house then, I mean they just demolished it? [00:43:52][2.9]

[00:43:53] Audrey Matthews: Yes! Uh-huh. [00:43:53][0.7]

[00:43:53] Don Rush: And took it for the highway? [00:43:55][1.3]

[00:43:55] Audrey Matthews: Yeah for the uh, well, I mean, you know, they And everything right but they took it for the playground For their playground and that's why the playground begins right as the uh ram's nest Was called rama's nest first Well, anyway, they uh Uh took it the land starting from where uh the park of the district superintendent's house was now It's still standing But see our house was next to that so they clear like all of that clean to the corner Did miss hut live there didn't the huts live somewhere. She lived up middle way. You know where a Walnut Street is She lived there in that house facing Walnut street. Uh-huh. Miss Ella Hut. Yeah [00:44:39][44.1]

[00:44:42] Shani Shields: And the thing said that now, if you have a house, long as the house is standing, you got a foundation, you can rehab it. They told you that. They told me that I could not. But see, if the house was still standing, that's another story. But anyway, it's a way to get your property. Yeah, it just disappeared, yeah. Yeah, that's the way they got your property, but I think it's sad when they do that. Yeah. What happened when 50 came through in 56, we moved on Jersey Road, not Sunset. And when the California section, they did the same thing, came right through 50, came right though the black community again, and took several houses. And that didn't take our house, but my father felt it was too close to the highway for me, and the noise, I guess, because you live across the street from the incinerator. The incinerator was right in the smack dab in the black community where they burned trash and stuff so so we moved out on jersey road miss Jolly went first uh the Jolly family then we came second and i think churches ervin church them lived on catherine street but they moved they just come right through, came straight down and just took out. [00:46:00][78.1]

[00:46:00] Vance Elbert: There's no question, darling, that the highway coming through displaced a major African-American community. And that's a fact. It did displace. [00:46:12][11.7]

[00:46:13] Don Rush: Let me just raise one other issue. In 1931, there was a lynching of an African-American. What kind of impact do you think that had on the community? I mean, let me start with Audrey, because I mean she lived in the area. [00:46:27][14.6]

[00:46:27] Audrey Matthews: Well I was born in 1928! [00:46:29][1.3]

[00:46:30] Don Rush: So, yeah, so, because some people have suggested, there's a suggestion that, the observation that here's this horrific event that occurs, certainly, I mean, African Americans, when they started lynching of this particular individual, everybody, you know, if you're African American, you left the area. But then, you come like Monday morning or whenever it is, you've got to go back into those white houses, some of whom then somebody may have participated in or watched it or been sympathetic or what I mean, what sense do you get about the impact of that event? [00:47:01][31.2]

[00:47:01] Shani Shields: They didn't leave the area, they didn't leave the day of the lynching. Some blacks were not allowed to leave. My grandfather, Stanley Pinkett, and Mr. Howard Purnell were, my grandfather was a bell captain at the Wicomico Hotel. They made them go on the roof of the hotel and watch it. My grandfather got word, I don't know if they had telephones back then, I doubt it, but he got word in the California community, because that's what's closer, for everybody to stay in the house. [00:47:35][33.7]

[00:47:35] Audrey Matthews: That's what we were told. [00:47:36][0.8]

[00:47:36] Shani Shields: That's right. [00:47:36][0.2]

[00:47:37] Audrey Matthews: Yes, Mom- [00:47:38][0.5]

[00:47:38] Shani Shields: To stay in the House. Dr. Brown, who could pass for white, he was down there watching it, scared to death. [00:47:46][8.2]

[00:47:48] Don Rush: I-I'm just... I wasn't born, but... [00:47:50][2.0]

[00:47:50] Shani Shields: Look, I wasn't born, but, uh, my mom, Esther... [00:47:54][3.2]

[00:47:54] Don Rush: Mm-hmm. [00:47:54][0.0]

[00:47:55] Shani Shields: And and and some relatives were telling and he came back because he was scared that they would And he wants, that's what he gets for it. And he had a cap on his head. I can describe him, he had the hat on. I see him now, he has straight hair and a cap one his head and watching them do this to this man. But he, and it's part of our history. It's a bad history. I know there's rumors of tattered courthouse down. The tree's cut down. It's part of history. There's good and bad history. And you have to live with good and bad history, you can't run away from it. They've got a thing there, but the Confederate stone in the Levin Winder. Well, I have a feeling that Levin Winder is related to my mom, Esther, because her father was named Arthur Winder." [00:48:46][51.4]

[00:48:47] Don Rush: Uh-huh. [00:48:47][0.0]

[00:48:47] Shani Shields: So I don't know if he's a relative. I'm just curious to see if he is. But the Confederacy was part of history. You can't wipe it out. People had beliefs of that time. I didn't support that, but that's part of the history. And we can't run away from it. And I'm a history lover, so there's good history, bad history. And I look at what they did to the Native Americans. As you know, and, and. You can't just wipe out history, period. You have to, and I think that the Confederate stones should stay there. I think the courthouse should stay there because the architecture is nice, beautiful. [00:49:27][39.3]

[00:49:29] Vance Elbert: But we also we also have have pictures of of when that lynching took place so of governor richie uh... Who was then the governor of maryland and i guess this way of richie highway was named after where he sent federal troops to salisbury and we can see the pictures of them of of of the troops all along north division street where the old uh... Fire station is and kind of look look towards up north division street and you can see all a maze of troops right here in Salisbury in 1931 because they feared that there was going to be a race riot. And so he sent the troops in here to quell the disturbance. And that's part of the history. [00:50:16][46.8]

[00:50:17] Don Rush: Do you think that, do you think it had a lingering impact? Do you see a change in the relationship at all between- It, it may have had a- [00:50:24][6.3]

[00:50:23] Vance Elbert: It may have had a lingering effect to a point where it is considered a tattic of intimidation, but the law and order must prevail. I mean, law and orders has to apply to everyone, but I'm sure not being there or even being born at that time, I'm I'm it had a intimidating effect on the community. Because when we talk about Jim Crow, when we're talking about racial segregation, and a lot of us. That have experience in Salisbury. We remember, in fact, I remember a group of us, again, talking about Salvation Army. I remember, a group us, George Stevens and Two Baby and Billy Reed and that group. I remember us going down to City Park and playing in City Park, and then the cop cars would roll up and say, out of there, you're not allowed in this park. And those are things that so many people take for granted for this, to this day. But a lot of us came up. During the era of racial segregation during the civil rights era to a point where we transition into the community that we are today and i will have to say there is very strong uh... From both sides that uh... That communities peacefully coexist even though we have our questions and and concerns uh... But races are it's a very very big factor in american history and even in our local community yesterday. [00:51:51][88.0]

[00:51:51] Shani Shields: It's still there. It's very big fact. It's stll there. I know Ms. Lucretia in Somerset County, the lynching they had there, I tried to get her to talk about it. And when we worked for the newspaper, they wanted me to talk to Ms. Lucretian. She wouldn't talk about, you know, some things people put in the back, subconscious, the bad things. Mm-hmm, and um they don't want to talk about it and this probably were taught now this is just saying that his experiences that he had i never had those experiences i guess i was sheltered in the way that we went to everybody's business that was black-owned because my daddy came from Jamaica that raised me and we went to black-owning stuff Melvin Samples restaurant we built in downtown, Tony's shoe store, I wasn't exposed to being turned away to things like my other classmates may have experienced. But it was there, I got the full blown thing when we integrated schools at Wye (Wicomico) High, the full blown things. [00:53:01][70.0]

[00:53:02] Vance Elbert: We saw it here during the civil rights era, for example. Old Harmon Field was right there on Carroll Street. It's where the health department is now. It's out there off of Shoemaker Drive area now. I remember a group of us from our neighborhood, we were the first ones to go to Harmon Field and sort of integrate that particular playground, so much so that the photographers from Life Magazine came down and they took off. Took some pictures of black and white kids playing together in harm's field also at that particular time during the the sitting demonstrations in the early sixties there were a lot of there was a lot racial strife not only in cambridge but also in prince's and so salisbury was like between both of these two two two towns uh... And so you know we experienced Experience it also because uh... Prison academy in maryland state college which is now u n e s they were all the part of the african community africano-american community educating its own in those historically black institutions to a point where we've transitioned into today too to to integrated institutions of higher learning. [00:54:22][79.5]

[00:54:23] Don Rush: Let me ask you this, because I really stumbled onto this, I was not aware that this community existed at all, except that somebody at a restaurant mentioned it to me. Why do you think that nobody seems to know about it? I mean, it seems to me, I've talked to people and they said, really, there was a Georgetown, they had not heard of it, to say nothing about California, New Jersey, that sort of thing. [00:54:45][21.6]

[00:54:46] Shani Shields: Disappeared from I mean [00:54:47][1.4]

[00:54:49] Don Rush: Well, maybe it's the white community. [00:54:51][2.5]

[00:54:52] Shani Shields: Uh, well, they changed the name to Newtown, but it was DeFar, but it was always Georgetown and it's still Georgetown. It records can show it was Georgetown. Uh, John Pinkett owned that land where the playground is. The playground is John Pinket. I don't know who he is, some relative of mine. [00:55:11][18.8]

[00:55:11] Audrey Matthews: But I imagine that's where Uncle John, which is my great uncle, when he bought the home place, he probably got it through John Pinkett. [00:55:22][11.2]

[00:55:23] Shani Shields: And see see the thing they want to wipe your history out and then we allow it to happen. I can't put it all on the white community. We need to teach our children the history of our grandfathers and we need to want to find out about the history. See I'm the person that I thirst for what my family history is and and some people don't thirst for that. They're momentary they won't know what's happening right now. [00:55:48][25.5]

[00:55:48] Don Rush: Do you think that, do you think, that young African Americans... [00:55:50][1.9]

[00:55:51] Shani Shields: No. No. [00:55:52][0.8]

[00:55:53] Vance Elbert: Except for when they come into association with the Chipmunk Cultural Center. [00:56:00][6.4]

[00:55:59] Shani Shields: You carry on. [00:56:01][1.5]

[00:56:00] Vance Elbert: Your curiosity would tend you to say well why is this building here on this particular in this particular area and there's no other African Americans visibly in this area why is this church there or this church structure there but once you start going below the surface and digging into the facts you soon find out that there was a thriving African American community that was this place by route 50 highway and Was it intentional or not? It was definitely consequential because it affected the history and the culture of the African-American. [00:56:41][40.4]

[00:56:42] Vance Elbert: In that area, and by displacing it, there's neither track nor trace that it ever existed. [00:56:48][5.7]

[00:56:52] Don Rush: What do you think is the legacy then of Georgetown? Or is it just going to, do you just think disappear? I mean, obviously we'd be able to go to the Chipman Center, but outside of the Chipman Center, [00:57:01][9.1]

[00:57:03] Vance Elbert: is a legacy legacy probably will be that uh... This is where it all started in this area popular mention once on the majority of land there and so all the streets and most of the houses that are in there prior to the Civil War and just after the Civil war, where land transfers, they came from the Poplar Hill Mansion. And so it saw its beginning. And then as slavery was ended after the civil war and you had African Americans moving and dissipating into the community, that probably sprung up that particular community. Where the church was. And then over a period of time, when highway came through, neither track nor trace that had ever existed and that they ever lived. [00:58:03][60.2]

[00:58:04] Don Rush: Let me ask you this since you're the elected official, sort of size, if I drive around in the city I don't see any recognition of it. I mean I said there's a Chipman Center but why doesn't the city celebrate this? Why doesn't it mark it? Why hasn't it? It's some plaque, something to recognize that it was here. [00:58:26][22.3]

[00:58:26] Shani Shields: I think that that's the goal of mine, I haven't done it yet, because especially I live in the California neighborhood and the Purdue company had loaned us a little garden where I wanted to put in the name of California. I was told by a meeting that if I started targeting, naming things, it would be like gang signs and all that stuff, but it was part of teaching the younger black community about. The history and the naming of like Sunset Heights, California, Georgetown, there's something called Cuba. It used to be called, what was it used to be called? [00:59:02][36.0]

[00:59:03] Audrey Matthews: It was down there where Mr. Warren and Marx and them stayed down in that area. [00:59:07][3.9]

[00:59:08] Vance Elbert: But see, it's also a part of a tale that is told in the fact that we're trying to preserve and hold on to the Chipman Cultural Center. [00:59:17][9.0]

[00:59:17] Vance Elbert: Because it is a result. It is a reflection of that community. That community built that structure. In fact, a lot of people don't even know that in 1882, Frederick Douglass, who was the Marshal of Washington, D.C., came to Salisbury and spoke at the courthouse to raise money to add that second floor onto the Chipman Cultural Center. See, when it was first built, it was It's that single story. And after the Civil War, it became the school for, first school in Wacomco County for African-American children. But then Frederick Douglass came here in 1882. And he was a great statesman and abolitionist Who has who had dinner with President Abraham Lincoln at least eight times. So we do have a historic connection in that community dating all the way back to to Frederick Douglass. But then again, that takes us right back to the race legacy in our culture because of the slavery, the abolitionists, and also the Civil War. And so that's the important, that is one of the Chipman Cultural Center so that story can be told. [01:00:31][73.7]

Don Rush: We've been speaking with Audrey Jackson Matthews, also Vance Elbert, Shani Shields, Gus White, talking about a community called Georgetown, which has disappeared, an African American community, and maybe Shani will remind us from time to time that it was actually there. You've been listening to Delmarva today. I'm Don Rush, thanks for listening. [01:00:51][19.3]

[01:00:56] Introduction: This has been Delmarva Today, a production of Delmarvo Public Radio. Chris Rank produces and is our audio engineer. Don Rush is your host. For podcasts, visit our website, delmarvapublicradio.net, or subscribe to the Delmarver Today podcast in iTunes. Delmarvor Today can now be seen on PAC 14. To view the schedule, visit the Daily Times, or visit pac14.org. [01:00:56][0.0] [3514.5]